Damn right.
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• Ignore our domestic and international human rights obligations
• Cripple public service effectiveness
• Completely throw Te Tiriti o Waitangi out the window.
25. So what would Eddie Jones say about this bill (LBS had rules about confidentiality, so I can’t
repeat verbatim) – but based on what he has publicly said many times–he would say it’s a
losing formula. His approach to building high-performance teams was categorically
diverse, because there are always high-performing individuals available, but making them
into a team is the hard part. He also consistently emphasises the importance of authenticity
and psychological safety in his comments – DEI is critical to enabling these. His comments
on psychological safety also mirror Google’s breaking work on what makes effective teams
and organisations. Paul McGinley also emphasised the importance of psychological safety
for teams – and he famously built an amazing team to win the Ryder Cup.
26. So, honourable committee members, I contend that DEI is the winning formula for both
rugby teams and the public service.
27. Thank you for listening to me and tolerating my diversions but LBS did really make quite the
progressive impression on me, and I hope I have persuaded the committee that removing
the current DEI provisions is an absolute folly, and you must recommend those clauses of
the bill be completely expunged before this bill goes to its next reading.
13.10.2025 21:25
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Kia ora koutou katoa Ms Belich and honourable committee members,
1. I am Paul Thistoll, CEO of Rights Aotearoa. I appear before you today to deliver what I hope
will be the most important testimony you hear on this Bill. I contend I am uniquely qualified
to comment on this proposed legislation because I am both a human rights professional
and the holder of a Master’s degree in business strategy, organisational science, and
leadership from LBS - London Business School. This proposed legislation engages issues
at the intersection of human rights and organisational strategy.
2. I am very proud of having been accepted into LBS, it was an extremely competitive entry
process and completing the full-time taught degree onsite in London for a year was one of
the most intense work periods of my life. I attended intimate talks from dozens of leaders
and a few sports coaches – two I remember vividly were Paul McGinley – the European
Ryder Cup captain and Eddie Jones on how to build high-performing teams.
3. But now I sit before you, back in Aotearoa, a kiwi commenting on a proposed Bill which — in
my opinion — represents one of the most catastrophically evidence-defying pieces of
legislation ever proposed in New Zealand's history. I do not make this statement lightly. I
make it based on decades of world-leading organisational research that this Bill
completely ignores.
So let’s crack into it.
4. The first and overarching reason that we should reject the Diversity, equity and
inclusions (DEI)-destroying provisions of this bill is that they are based on an entirely
false Premise.
5. The Bill's proponents claim diversity undermines merit. This is demonstrably, empirically,
categorically false. I will now present extremely strong evidence from London Business
School - one of the world's premier business research institutions - that demonstrates the
exact opposite.
6. Professor Herminia Ibarra's Research: The Architecture of Exclusion: Professor Herminia
organisations don't achieve merit-based selection. They achieve homogeneity through
unconscious exclusion. Old white men exclude minorities unconsciously through patterns
of behaviour.
7. Consider her findings:
• Senior leaders unconsciously sponsor protégés who remind them of
themselves
• Women receive 75% fewer high-visibility assignments critical for
advancement
• Performance criteria systematically favour stereotypically masculine traits
• Without structured DEI interventions, informal networks exclude diverse
talent
This isn't ideology. This is peer-reviewed, longitudinal research across thousands of
organisations.
8. Ibarra's concept of the "authenticity paradox" is particularly damning for this Bill. When
marginalised people are told to "just be yourself" in workplaces designed for others, they
face an impossible choice: conform and lose their identity, or remain authentic and be
excluded. DEI frameworks resolve this paradox by broadening what leadership looks like.
9. Removing these frameworks doesn't enhance merit - it restores the old boys' network.
We end up with a public sector that looks like the Vienna Philharmonic – not the New
York Phil. (Famously, the New York-based orchestra much more closely resembles the
output of global and American music schools, whilst the Vienna-based orchestra looks
more like our PM.)
10. Professor Ioannis Ioannou's Research: The Performance Imperative: Now let me present
Professor Ioannou's groundbreaking research on organisational performance. His 18-year
longitudinal study, published in Management Science, tracked companies that adopted
comprehensive ESG principles - of which DEI is a critical component.
11. The results:
• High Sustainability companies showed 4.8% higher annual returns
• Superior return on assets and equity
• Better operational efficiency
• Greater resilience during economic downturns
Let me be crystal clear: organisations with strong DEI frameworks financially
outperform those without them.
This isn't correlation. Ioannou's research establishes causation through sophisticated
econometric analysis. Companies in the top quartile for diversity show 36% higher
profitability. While public service doesn't measure profit, equivalent gains in efficiency and
effectiveness would transform government performance.
13. The Bill's proposal to eliminate DEI is equivalent to a high-performing company suddenly
abandoning its winning strategy. In the private sector, this would be considered managerial
malpractice. Directors would be sued for breach of fiduciary duty.
--------- (keep 14 and 15 unread and in reserve)
14. ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE (Can refer to in questions)The McKinsey Evidence: McKinsey's
2023 "Diversity Matters Even More" report analysed 1,265 companies across 23 countries.
Companies with gender-diverse executive teams were 39% more likely to outperform. For
ethnic diversity, it's 36%. The penalty for homogeneity is growing every year.
15. The Harvard Business Review Meta-Analysis: Thirty years of leadership research
confirms:
• Diverse teams make better decisions 87% of the time
• Inclusive cultures show 39% lower turnover
• 22% higher productivity
• 17% better team performance
This is not one study. This is the convergence of thousands of studies across millions of
data points.
------------
16. International Disasters We're About to Repeat: Committee members, we have real-time
evidence of what happens when governments eliminate DEI:
a. United States Federal Government, 2025:
• 23% resignation rate among employees of colour within three
months
• 78% of terminated DEI positions were women of colour
• Service delivery failures spiked 34%
• Constitutional crises and ongoing litigation
These aren't projections. This is happening right now. And you want to import this kind of
disaster to New Zealand?
17. The New Zealand Context: This Bill would:
• Breach our Te Tiriti obligations requiring active protection of Māori interests
Violate international human rights treaties we've ratified, including CEDAW and
ICCPR
• Potentially trigger mass resignations costing hundreds of millions
• Create legal chaos and years of litigation
• Destroy public service capability for a generation
(The only government department in favour of this bill will be Crown Law, as they will be in
demand managing legal actions against it).
18. I would conservatively estimate the economic cost of this bill to be over 4 billion over the
first 5 years of implementation. That's billion with a B. How did I get this number? After
subtracting direct transfers (like welfare/superann) and costs of debt financing, the total
public sector OPEX spend is about 89 billion NZD a year. So imagine we lose just 2 per cent
of productivity and efficiency on that number, and we have 3 per cent more staff turnover.
19. (Extra detail for questions) That includes actual costs, and lost productivity, employee
turnover, and efficiency losses and performance and organisational effectiveness hits.
That's $250-500 million annually in turnover costs, $500 million in productivity losses, plus
litigation and service delivery failures.
20. As well as being qualified in business, I am a human rights professional and in terms of
human rights, I tautoko the Human Rights Commission’s excellent written and oral
submissions. This bill is both an organisational disaster area and a human rights nightmare. I
am focussing on the organisational aspects for time reasons.
21. So to bring this all together – in conclusion: Honourable Committee members, we need to
acknowledge the Truth About Merit—true meritocracy cannot exist without mechanisms
to identify and eliminate bias. When you remove DEI frameworks, you don't get merit-based
selection. You get what Professor Ibarra calls "homophily" - people hiring people like
themselves.
22. The false choice between merit and diversity is a con. Excellence requires inclusion. Merit
demands diversity.
Here are my prepared remarks - I won't speak to all of my content as it's slightly too long.
The eagle-eyed amongst you will see that Rights Aotearoa has updated its house font from Helvetica Neue to Helvetica Now.
13.10.2025 21:25
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Governance and Administration Subcommittee A
8.00am
-
1.45pm
Room 5, Parliament House
Public Service Amendment Bill
8.00am
-
9.00am
Rights Aotearoa
8.00am
-
8.10am
Paul Thistoll, CEO
Trust Democracy
8.10am
-
8.20am
Simon Right, Chair
Professor Jonathan Boston
8.20am
-
8.25am
Interested Citizens Group - Hamilton
8.25am
-
8.35am
Wish me luck, team - I am appearing in front of the Governance and Administration Committee tomorrow at 8am to make my oral submission against the Public Service Amendment Bill.
Once again, it is a bill not grounded in evidence. DEI is crucial for avoiding bias in organisations.
13.10.2025 20:56
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Rights Aotearoa Newsletter #3
It's Been a Week
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08.10.2025 20:04
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Small favour: sign up for the Rights Aotearoa mailing list at
👉 www.rightsaotearoa.nz
It’ll be our main communications channel in the future (besides BSky): a weekly Thursday newsletter + the occasional urgent human rights hot take.
No spam, NO YELLING, just substance.
28.09.2025 21:44
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